4. Changing Audiences

RK: Well, let's turn it around from the performer to the listener, to the audience. You're a musical creator. How do you think audiences are changing? There's a noticeable shift in the pop world towards rhythm much less than melody and harmony. If you listen to rap (although rap is starting to evolve), the harmony's becoming more complex and the melody's probably becoming a little more complex. There's a lot of pop becoming dominated by rhythm in ways we haven't seen in this century. Do you perceive a difference in the audience?

DL: No question about it. I mean, when I started out in the late '60s, and into the '70s, it used to be (...well, it's always been...) musicians, fellow artists, intellectual-type people and their cronies who you played for. And of course, a certain sprinkling of nightlife people. The audience I'm talking about was there to really hear the advancement, the evolution, the intricacies of the music. I mean, musicians and non-musicians alike were still interested in how it was changing, and they were probably seeing it through the eyes of their art or their intellectual interests.

Now, as we slowly turn into a non-intellectual culture, your audience's attention span is quite small and you have an audience that can't really listen to this music for the most part, except the musicians. That's basically who I'm playing for, because it's really gone into the entertainment thing. It's not the people's fault. It's the culture. I mean, nobody's sitting down listening to a full record anymore. First of all, 60 minutes is impossible -- nobody has time -- and jazz absolutely demands rapt attention and intensity of listening.

That's completely the opposite of what's going on. I always say to my students, "Listen, the people don't know anything. In fact, most of the musicians hardly know, so you cannot play to them, you have to make a decision at some point in your life who you're playing for because in fact, that is probably the most important decision you will make which will determine your career. Or what you would like you career to be." If you're playing for the people, that's definitely the decision you make. Now, I have no problem with entertainment. It is, after all, entertainment that people are paying for. But if you're playing for the art then you've also made a decision and you'd better be in for the long run, and you'd better learn how to make a living some other way for a while. It's really black-and-white; it's not gray anymore.

RK: When do you think it will occur that jazz players will start having light shows and concerts that look like rock concerts?

DL: Well, it has occurred. I mean, Pat Metheny does it. Weather Report did it in kind of an antique way in the '70s. With the technology, that's just part of getting out on stage in front of 10,000 people. You have to do that.

[64.7 seconds] RealAudio sound clip

See, here's the real problem: it's gotten too big. And the question is, did it have to? Well, of course, society took it that way. Should it? is the real question, and in my very strong opinion, jazz is not meant for many people. It is not supposed to be a popular music. It's supposed to be played for a few hundred at the most. It is absolutely an esoteric art form, and you know, I get into discussions, because everyone says "Oh, what a terrible view to have," but I have no problem with that because that's what I, and probably several other people and certainly some musicians, are interested in. I have no problem playing for those few people around the world and being in contact with them like a small and private club. It's not to be excluding or prejudicial, but it's the way it is. And I'm not against those who look further. You want to play in a style that attracts 5,000 -- or even 50,000 -- I have no problem with that.

[51.6 seconds] RealAudio sound clip

My point is, make a very clear decision somewhere along the line for yourself as an artist about whom you want to play for. It's almost a number. You can almost say, "I wish to play for 5,000-plus people" and that determines almost exactly how you're going to play. In a sense, I could put a line between that and link it on a piece of paper to style and music: what you have to wear, who you have to talk to, how you have to talk. I mean it could almost go down like that. So, really, by determining that, you have determined your stance. And there's enough around for everybody. That's the good thing about our age. There is room for specialization. You can get a shoe made that's one of a kind, and there are probably five people who'll wear it. And you can have music for five people, or 50, or 500, and probably make a living at it. I don't have a problem with that, I just think it should be clear.

RK: Yeah, although how can anybody who has a halfway deep understanding about jazz compare going to the Vanguard to going to Alice Tully Hall or Avery Fisher?

DL: I don't see it as a problem. It's what's relative and what's proper in proportion. It's music that doesn't speak to everybody, and I don't see it as a problem. I think there are people who are very interested in the intricacies of what I do or what Coltrane was doing in '66 or '67, let's say. And there's nothing wrong with that. And now with the media, with the technology and communication, we can reach those people in Indonesia or eight people in Chicago, so really that's the problem of our time: how to link up to those who want that specialized need? How do you find your audience? And that's not unlike any other business. I think they're out there, I'm just not sure they're at the North Sea Festival or reading Downbeat Magazine anymore, that's all.

Continue

Liebman Interview

1.	Jazz in the 1990s
2.	The Historical Continuum in Jazz
3.	Unique Voices in Jazz
4.	Changing Audiences
5.	Miles
6.	Younger Artists & Underappreciated Artists
7.	Liebman as Composer & Listener
8.	Upcoming Projects
9.	The International Scene

Supporting Materials
Biography
Links

Archive Home

Dave Liebman

Archive Home



If you need RealPlayer 5.0,
you can download it free here.